OLLIE & ZAC: SESSION 1
Co-owner and Executive Chef of Lucy Liu, Zac Cribbes, sat down with Sommelier and Beverage Director, Ollie Wang to talk all things wine, the importance of choosing the right pairing of wine with your food and Ollie's top tips.
Sommelier and Beverage Director
OLLIE WANG
Born in Beijing city, Ollie Wang's journey from a visiting Chinese university student studying economics to the Beverage Director of one of Melbourne's busiest venues is a great one.
Leaving Beijing behind at the age of 23, Ollie looked to Australia as a place to put down roots and make himself a home. Originally hoping to study art and design at Swinburne, Ollie got a part-time job at the Palace in St Kilda working in the bar. It was here that he had his first taste of beverage and service, and how they can work together began.
Sourcing interesting European wines for picky European bands who would only drink rioja or finding new and interesting beers for the drink's list. From there, Ollie took the job at just open and now famous Revolver Nightclub, starting as their bar manager.
After 6 years at Revolver, Ollie wanted a change of scene and put an end to the 5am finishes. He took a job at a newly opened pan-Asian restaurant, Taxi Dining Room, as the bar manager.
Ollie's passion for all things meant, when surrounded by a 3000-bottle wine list, he couldn't help but be fascinated by it. Over the next eight years, Ollie immersed himself in wine and beverage culture and knowledge, doing formal and on-the-job training under some of the country's best sommeliers.
Ollie developed a keen nose for wine and a particular interest in sake. He was one of Australia's first dedicated sake sommeliers, travelling to Japan many times, fuelling a deep interest in sake and sake matching.
His passion for wine and learning pushed him through some great venues in Melbourne, ending up where he is now at Lucy Liu, Melbourne. Between judging wines both professionally and for fun, Ollie has curated a brilliant list of food-focused wines and a country-hopping cocktail list at Lucy Liu.
THE INTERVIEW
Zac
Hello everyone. My name is Zac. I'm one of the co owners and the executive chef at Lucy Liu. Today we're going to introduce you to.
Ollie
Hello everyone. My name is Ollie and I responsible for the beverage in the Lucy Liu kitchen and the bar.
HOW OLLIE BECAME INTERESTED IN WINE
Zac
So Ollie does everything pretty much from the ground up in terms of our beverage list. He's in charge of curating the list, putting it all together, the cocktails, and obviously in charge of a large team of guys that help him make what the beverage offering is at Lucy Liu what it is. So Ollie, tell us a little bit about how your journey started in beverage and why you got interested in it?
Ollie
I always drink, that helps. And, that's true. But for the wine, I think that's pretty much come from my working through the different venues and with different people and I realised such a great culture behind the wine. Behind all of the beverage and all of the spirits and the digestive and all kind of stuff and so much strong culture behind it. So that's why I got more and more sucked into it and the more I learned and the more I'm interested.
Zac
And how did you get a start? Were you already interested in wine? You left China when you were 20-ish, 20s, early 20s. Were you already interested in wine there or were you exposed to it when you got to Australia?
Ollie
Not really. I was a beer drinker when I was in the young teenagers. But I have to tell you a story. It's always come to my mind, that story. When I finish high school, I wanted to go to see the ocean. I was born in Beijing. Beijing is a inland city, and there's a couple of rivers running through, and there's a couple of little mermaid lakes, and I've never seen an ocean before. So I decided to go to Qingdao, a coastal city of China. Then I went there and overnight I climbed up the Thai mountains overnight to save the accommodation monies. And I remembered the first time I see the ocean, it was great. And it's just the wave, the smell, it's fantastic.
I think by accident I bought a bottle of Riesling. I think the Chinese made the Riesling. I was sitting on the beach, crack it open, the sweet of Riesling, the salty of sea breeze, had my best in my life until now. I think that moment is still best in my life of wine experience.
"I was sitting on the beach, crack it open, the sweet of Riesling, the salty of sea breeze, had my best in my life until now. I think that moment is still best in my life of wine experience."
Zac
Best wine experience ever?
Ollie
Yeah in the ocean. And drinking a very cheap Riesling, and the smell, the sea salt.
Zac
Better than all those Grand Cru’s that you taste out at those tastings when you have to leave early in the afternoon.
Ollie
Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Like virgin having sex for the first time.
WHEN OLLIE ARRIVED IN MELBOURNE
Zac
Absolutely. After that, tell me a little bit about your history. You worked in quite a few great places throughout Melbourne. So you arrived in Melbourne and then you started working in the bar scene and then you got into sort of sommeliering and I'm especially interested in how you got into sake and what you started doing with that.
Ollie
The reason I got into the sake because when I work at Taxi Dining Room and because it's an Asian influence in our cuisine and sake become another general we need to develop. At the time I just taking over the responsibilities after certain personnel shift in the restaurant and I'm still very interested in wine, but I discovered that sake is very interesting. Especially the new schools of Japanese sake. It's clear, and it's clean, and it's very aromatic, and very food friendly. I've been sucked in basically.
"Especially the new schools of Japanese sake. It's clear, and it's clean, and it's very aromatic, and very food friendly. I've been sucked in basically."
STARTING AT LUCY LIU & THE CONNECTION BETWEEN WINE AND FOOD
Zac
So you made your work, worked your way through a bunch of Melbourne venues, and you ended up here in 2014 when we first opened. You still had your toe in the smith at the same time. When you were first starting our wine list, what were the things that influenced your decisions on what to put on and how is it that you look at our food? So these bold Asian flavours. How do you see the choices you made to match those with that? What's your decision making process?
Ollie
My decision making process, it is really strongly related to the food we're offering. And I started possibly not worry exactly what I want to be. And we chose the kitchen, have some fantastic food. We have the pork hock I always remembered. And we have Jian bing, we have kingfish sashimi with nanjing. And of course, all the time it changes. But those flavours require a certain wine to go with it.
I always enjoy walking around the restaurants, smell the cooking, and smell the curry, smell all different spices. This aroma fills up the whole room. And from that point, I always try to find the wine that has a very strong aroma, and has various textures, and a very clean finish. Because our food's very strong flavours, and every bite, you need something to clear off your palate, get ready for the next bite. Our dining style is very Asian, I think European have this kind of dining style as well. It's grazing dining style. So what you want to do, you want to pick up your kingfish sashimi, have a sip of wine, and next, possibly you pick up duck, and you have sip of wine. The next one, you possibly pick up papaya salad. And sip wine. So the wine have the ability, texture matches, flavour matches. Most importantly, the texture and the clean finish, crispy finish, have to clear your palate, get it ready for the next bite to experience another different flavour. So they kind of have conflicts. And they have to somehow balance, harmony, whatever the words you like to use. Somehow have to by end of day, they have to clean your palate. Have a good, clean finish, and to get ready for next bites. Because you are not have a big plate full of one food, have one glass of wine, then change to next plate, have another glass of wine. Most likely, you have three dishes in front of you, have one glass of wine.
"I always enjoy walking around the restaurants, smell the cooking, and smell the curry, smell all different spices. This aroma fills up the whole room. And from that point, I always try to find the wine that has a very strong aroma, and has various textures, and a very clean finish. Because our food's very strong flavours, and every bite, you need something to clear off your palate, get ready for the next bite."
Zac
So that's the challenge, isn't it? The challenge there for somebody like you is to go, I'm trying to match, or trying to find something that works among a table of six or seven dishes, sometimes. Something that works for all of them a little bit. That's something I'm in awe of you and the way you do that.
PAIRING COCKTAILS WITH FOOD
Zac
I think something else that we're really known for here is our cocktail list. So, talk to me a little bit about our cocktail list and some of the things that you like to do. I know you have a lot of fun with the cocktail list. There's always a special cocktail running in the front of our wine list. There's always something interesting and I know that there's been a lot of people through our bar team that also give a lot of influence into it as well. How do you see our cocktails working with our beverage and our food and is it the same sort of concept, or is it a little bit different?
Ollie
Our cocktail working into our food, and it's sort of similar philosophy like what I do with wines. Similar. Whatever flavour they have to deal with, and the main flavour by finish have to be clean. Have to be clean, have to be crisp, and maybe you already had a lychee flavoured, then that's a cold release of all of this spiciness of all the dishes. When you finish the food, finish the sip of lychee, have to be clean. That's the same philosophy we apply into the wine. And credit to all of our bar staff, they are really interested in all different flavours. They're interested in all different classic cocktails and what we try to do is join certain classic cocktails together into one drink, and in a very basic method, and create a clean, but a good flavoured cocktail.
"Our cocktail working into our food, and it's sort of similar philosophy like what I do with wines. Similar. Whatever flavour they have to deal with, and the main flavour by finish have to be clean."
Zac
What's an example of one of those cocktails on our list at the moment? Something that's a classic, because I love that idea that we have these classic cocktails that we just sort of Lucy-fy them a little bit.
Ollie
What we do, for example, Tokyo Drift. Tokyo Drift have been in our list for five years now. Of course, we have it during the non operational time. And that's a classic of which it is a classic cocktail, and then we made it a sell, rather than a classic cocktail. Or another different sell, so we married the two people into one family. But they don't have an offspring yet, but hopefully soon they will.
FUTURE TRENDS
Zac
Talking about the future, our list is comprised of wines and of cocktails and of drinks from all over the globe and from all the new world and old world and everywhere really. Are there any things that you've seen recently or trends that you see happening or things that you're excited by or things that you like drinking at the moment that you think are going to be big in the future?
I mean certainly after COVID we saw a big spike in cocktails. We saw a lot of people moving to that celebratory, have a drink type of scenario, and that's probably winding down a little bit now. What's the next sort of trend? What's the next?
Ollie
That's a very big question, and I think a trend not setting by us. Us, which is a bunch of sommeliers working on the field to conduct food and wine matching. I think a trend setting by certain food writers and certain wine writers, and they have an influence, we don't. But what we try to do, we try working on the basic. And trend is certain. For my experience, a certain trend always added on a little bit of dimension. But most times, a question to the classic. If anything’s a classic cannot answer those questions, they will be gone. And if any classic can answer these questions without any effort, they will survive. And the trend will go. That's from my point of view.
Trend is always trend. And any year there is a trend. Like this year, there could be a trend for this summer, but next summer everyone will possibly wear lime green. But the year after we all wear lime green? Not.
TIPS FOR PEOPLE COOKING AT HOME
Zac
If you were, let's take an example. Let's say you come in and you dine here. You have a wonderful experience, you buy the Lucy Liu cookbook, you take it home and you're inspired by a lot of the food in there and you're cooking a few dishes. What's something that you could make at home, pretty simply, that could really go well with our food? Or what style of variety of wine, even, would you look at in a bottle shop and go, right this is, as a general rule, it's going to work really well with a lot of the flavour profile that we have here at Lucy Liu?
Ollie
At home, if you're cooking at home, if you're drinking at home. The few facts I mentioned before, what do we do to follow in our wine list and beverage list and I think it's have to be to follow the same philosophies. But when you're going out to purchase a bottle of wine and to go with your food, for example, if you want to make the Sri Lankan curry and you go home. You want to have bought a white wine and I would like to have suggested a direction for you. You go for Northern Rome or Southern Rome's white wine. So Grenache blanc, type of thing, or different blends or variety of that. Because they have a texture, and they have spice, and those kind of fennel, they have a Mediterranean spice in these white wines, and it will suit those curry good, and in same time, they have some acid and they're clean. So you don't have to feel very, very full or feel your palate cannot take any more flavour. The more you drink, more you eat. So you can have a merry night.
THE IMPORTANCE OF COMMUNICATING WITH CUSTOMERS
Zac
I love the way that here we take a fun approach to wine, right? We have a fun approach to beverage in general and I think to food and to dining and we try to have fun in the venue in general right? You're a sommelier, you spend a lot of time at tables speaking to people and then asking questions. What's a tip that you could give to some of our listeners that is a good question to ask or a great thing to give the sommelier the best information possible to help you choose their wine for them? Because I think we don't buy into too much of that winey, it's a bit more casual and fun often here? So what's a couple of key phrases they can say? Hey, I like a wine that is da da da.
Ollie
Customers ask, they just want to experience more, which is they cannot experience at home by themselves.
Zac
Something new.
"The wine behind the wine, there is a culture. In front of you, a plate of food, glass of wine, and they have a long, long, long history."
Ollie
Or they want to stay in the genre, but bring different influence. That's a sommelier’s job. That's a privileged person working in the restaurant and eatery and in any food places. That's their job. The philosophy is like I explained before. The wine behind the wine, there is a culture. In front of you, a plate of food, glass of wine, and they have a long, long, long history. The classic region with a classic certain type of food, always go with a classic, whatever they produced, the wine and whatever they produce the food. If you have some good understanding, what's the dish come from? What's the wine come from? I think sometimes it's very good interesting reading materials for everyone. And all very good interesting Google. I think no one's reading anymore, and this kind of fact that, you know, you always try to find a certain particular food, certain region, and match with certain wine, but it's one culture, basically what do we talk about the origin. All back to the northern part of Middle Eastern region, and European region, Middle East, and the Black Sea, all around there. There was one started that the Romans built one around. It's when particularly like us when we're dealing with our Asian cuisine and when we're dealing with wines, I think there was a lot of connections there and the first connection is protein. We all eat the same. We all eat the same. Not I eat pork, you eat elephant. You might eat elephant.
Zac
Uncommon. Not at Lucy Liu.
Ollie
Maybe not in the restaurant, you know, and possibly you have to go to jail for that. There is a pork classic match in a lot of wine where it's origin based. In Lucy Liu, if you're dining in Lucy Liu, or if you're cooking at home. Other spice, other flavour they added in, and where is, also there is an answer. If you do a lot of fennel, and where is very around black sea sort of flavour. And if you love using the bay leaf, oregano. There is another origin of food and wine from those type of food that you're always using this kind of spice. I think that's a basic where you'll learn.
TIPS FOR PAIRING WINE WITH SPICE
Zac
What about, so I think that people are often scared with wine and spice. So, chilli spice. Is there any recommendations you can give, as general recommendations, wines vary, but varieties of wines that are going to work with spicy food? So obviously there's that clean finish that you've spoken about, but the spicy food, what are you looking for in a wine that's going to work with spicy food?
Ollie
Fruit. And clean.
Zac
By fruit you mean fruit characteristics in the wine, a fruity wine.
Ollie
You are 100 percent right. And this is something, firstly, chili spice is not flavour. It's kind of your body reaction. The best method is drinking milk. It's not wine. But wine can help. Which is a fruit like honeydew flavour. And all of white peach flavour, and all those kind of fruit flavours, can help you react different. Your brain react different. You take away from your mind the reaction you're being injured by this kind of spice. I think that might be too big question to answer in a short sentence.
Zac
It does give you that chance of going, right, this one. You can say to a sommelier, I'm looking for a fruit forward wine, something, you know, with a nice clean finish, because I'm going to eat a lot of spicy food, or you can say it to the person at the wine shop, or wherever you're going, and that gives them a bit of direction.
Ollie
Wine have to have structures, and the fruit, too much fruit, when wine lose balance and you want to have a really, really good time to enjoy food and wine together. Like the food, you have to have a balance itself. And wine have to have balance itself. And I think that's the key. You need to drink good quality wine. You cook good food. If you already have this kind of balance in your food, have the balance in your wine, I think that's key. And crisp, the key thing is always when you're drinking a wine, food is important. The texture, it carries the food when all the way down into your digestive system. And also to ease all of the flavour and the clean acidic finish and to dry finish, the wine is a dry finish, to clean your palate, that's essential.
"Like the food, you have to have a balance itself. And wine have to have balance itself. And I think that's the key. You need to drink good quality wine. You cook good food. If you already have this kind of balance in your food, have the balance in your wine, I think that's key."
OLLIE'S WINE RECOMMENDATION
Zac
That's the key, yeah. Finally, have you got a hot tip for us? What are you drinking at the moment? What should we all go out and look for? One bottle. I know you try hundreds of bottles a week, but give us something. Give us a hot tip. Something that we can all go out and look for that's out there at the moment that you're loving.
Ollie
What are we looking for one? And I think there is a few things we can definitely looking for like, Chenin Blanc. They have some fantastic ability to match seafood, vegetarian, and the game, and the meat, poultry dishes, and that's a white wine. Also Cab Franc could be a fantastic go with some fried shellfish, certain seafood, baked fish, and all the way to the very meaty dishes.
Zac
That's great. Two interesting newer varieties to Australia, especially. Chenin Blanc and Cab Franc.
"Chenin Blanc. They have some fantastic ability to match seafood, vegetarian, and the game, and the meat, poultry dishes, and that's a white wine."
Ollie
I think that's a fantastic, and particularly now, there was a lot of those kind of wine available now and they come from, you know, originally there was a lot of people making these wines in Loire Valley and also Africans make some fantastic Chenin Blanc dry. There is various style and W. A. makes some fantastic Chenin Blanc, too. And hopefully they're making more and more. And, I personally thinking Yarra Valley can be a fantastic next origin for the Cab Franc.
"Cab Franc could be a fantastic go with some fried shellfish, certain seafood, baked fish, and all the way to the very meaty dishes."
Zac
There you go. That's a good, that's your hot tip for the future. Cab Franc for the Yarra Valley. Need to plan now.
Ollie
That might be a hot tip. Maybe no one want to listen, so, because Cabernet Sauvignon, we can see a lot of Cabernet Sauvignon, very heavy stuff. But the Cab Franc can bring in a lot of freshness, bring in a lot of less tannic, more balanced, the light and medium body wine. Rather than you have a very heavy stone wine. I hope that explains.
Zac
Thank you everybody for listening and tuning in. I'm so proud of what Ollie does here. As you can tell, he's just a fountain of knowledge about wine. So come in, look out for him, say hello, and tell him a little bit about the fruity characteristics you want in your wine and let him guide you. There's a bunch in here that's really interesting. Thank you very much Ollie.
Ollie
Thank you very much. Thank you.
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